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Xela
VIP
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 781
Location: Shanghai
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 Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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Ender,
I am not judging you , I am just telling you that you have far too much time on your hands,
Ok, let's get back to your childish tit-for-tat debate because I can't wait:
| Quote: | | I'm just trying to point at the same situation when U.S. bombed Yugoslavia. What business is Kosovo of U.S? None. But they involved. |
You are right. The West only bombed Yugoslavia because they wanted Kosovo to be an American state and provided Kosovans with automatic American Green Cards.
| Quote: | | Why do U.S. feel they have to get involved with Georgian issues? |
Because Georgia asked them to.
A bit of a stupid question, that one.
| Quote: | | You are wrong. During WWII Red Army liberated Yugoslavia. |
No, you are wrong. Eastern Bloc Red Army never went into Yugoslavia, Tito just adopted nonsense Soviet ideals. You are talking about WW2 in which everybody was in each others' country, although even if we look at your own point, and I quote:
Although the Red Army only crossed a very small part of Yugoslavia in 1944, the northeastern corner, its activities there caused great concern for the communist partisans that feared that the resulting rape and plunder by their communist allies would weaken their standing with the population.[33] At least 121 cases of rape were documented later, 111 of which also involved murder.[33] In addition 1,204 cases of looting with assault were documented.[33] Stalin responded to a Yugoslav partisan leader's complaints at the Red Army's behaviour by saying, "Can't he understand it if a soldier who has crossed thousands of kilometers through blood and fire and death has fun with a woman or takes some trifle?"
How Russian.
| Quote: | | I just commented. If you asked question I didn't understood that it was question. |
No, but the moment you answered it as a question it automatically became one.
| Quote: | | I'm only at sixth month of learning English. Let's switch to Russian? |
We can switch to Russian if you please, but please PM me instead because in a forum where everybody speaks English I think it's highly inappropriate.
Oh, and don't worry, for 6 months of learning English your inability to understand or speak it does not show too badly.
| Quote: | | Direct question unanswered. Did I asked it wrong? |
I think you understood my answer perfectly well, but nevertheless:
It is nobody's affair except Russia's to give out Russian passports except when you are giving them out to people from another country with the sole aim of starting conflict and war.
| Quote: | | Please read details on Chechnya situation before argue about it. I suggest you to learn Russian and read something different than newspapers. |
I have read details on the Chechen conflict in Russian (and most other former USSR state languages). Just because you can only speak one language properly, doesn't mean we are all in the same situation.
| Quote: | | It was question about Georgia and S.O. You didn't answered question. Yes or no? |
Prove to me that Georgians fired at civilians and I will tell you. As it stands the only people I see doing any shooting and killing are Russians.
| Quote: | | Peacekeepers (Russian and Georgian) had been put between S.O. and Georgia in order to prevent hostilities. When Georgia attacked peacekeepers it violated something. |
When Russia supported breakaway rebel republics first I might add, it violated something.
| Quote: | | Please specify year and name of the war. |
I would call anything that involves starving, killing, and raping as being war. As for dates, take your pick from around the time of the Ottoman Empire leaving Ukraine, there has always been varying levels of violent conflict between Russians and Ukrainians.
| Quote: | | How did you calculated that? Are there any measurement methods? Please specify which country is second, which is third? |
I calculated and measured that on the fact that the Russian army has tradionally had the highest number of traitors than any other army in existence. Look to Chechnya for a list of Russian commanders who switched sides. I also base it on the fact that Russia talks about being a democratic state yet is the complete opposite (opinion of many, many Russians, and not mine).
And as for which countries come out second or third:
2nd: USA
3rd: China |
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Voyager
Frequent Guest
Joined: 08 Jan 2006
Posts: 45
Location: Ireland
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm afraid I am forced to agree that Russia has a long way to go before it is a truly democratic state , however I must point out that Russia was the first country to attempt the transition from totalitarian state to democratic state and is by far the largest to make the attempt , as there is no set way to do this and no guide the Russian people have come a long way , mostly by themselfs and although they are not there yet , I believe Russia will be one of the great democracies in the future in spite of the set backs they encounter every now and again |
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Ender
WayToRussified
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 498
Location: Urals
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Voyager wrote: | | ... despite his best efforts he can not get a Russian passport despite being born there , I can not repeat here what he has said about the Ossetians. |
I can understand his feelings. Our bureaucrates can bury anyone in papers and our law-makers can invent extremely idiotic laws. I wonder why he didn't apply for Russian citizenship as foreign citizen or person without citizenship? I've just tried to search any information about Russian citizenship and google has found zillions of offers to help with Russian citizenship. |
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Paul-Holmes
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1073
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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They are now in Georgia.
Why are they doing this? Well, Mr Bush wanted to place missiles in NATO countries and Georgia wants to be a NATO country, thus if Georgia becomes a NATO country then Russia will have missiles on its borders.
Two, President of Georgia now has been a thorn in the side of Russia for a long time, now he looks like a fool and has destroyed his country's reputation. Russia baited him and he took it. Only thing he can show for it, is that a Georgian will win many Olympic medals in the next Olympics for running. America has done nothing for the Georgians, but neither did Russian. It is the poorest country in Europe and when it was with Russia influence, it was pillaged by corrupt officials. Its major worth is transportation of drugs, oil and weapons to the world.
Ossetians for 4 times the wage and a good passport will be a citizen of Mars.
So what happens next? Total invasion of Georgia, well it is a long time since a boycott of an Olympic games. At least we will see which president candidate is only talk and one who actual has spirit. |
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Ender
WayToRussified
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 498
Location: Urals
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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I have posted large answer to Xela but it "magically" disappeared or I probably pressed the wrong button. I don't want to type it again. My free time soon ends. The situation changes quicky and there are mutually exclusive messages from various sources. I will not comment here anymore. My prediction is following: russian forces will advance as much as required, then the talks will start. Saakashvili failed his benefactors and soon they will replace him by someone else, for example Nino Burdjanadze.
Hope it will not turn into WWIII. Peace, friendship and bubble-gum!
Last edited by Ender on Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Voyager
Frequent Guest
Joined: 08 Jan 2006
Posts: 45
Location: Ireland
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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| It is starting to look like WW3 , all E.U. officials and military personel are being recalled from overseas (this includes from the Olympics) , an emergency session of the E.U. parliment is scheduled for tonight , and Polish officals are said to be discussing using the current situation to resolve its long-standing claim on Kaliningrad with the Lithuanian and Latvian delegations , Ukraine is also pushing the E.U. to take action with the British and Germans saying nothing at present (which is VERY worring) and with British , Spanish and Italian naval vessels heading for Greece (access point to the Black Sea from Europe) it looks like this could get very nasty before it gets any better |
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Paul-Holmes
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1073
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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Ukraine is next, but it will be an economic collapse.
If America and EU did something to actually stimulate the economy of Georgia, then Ossetia would be willing to join them instead of Russia.
Russia is spending millions of dollars to help this country and Georgia has no money to do nothing, so who would you join?
Russians might take Tbilisi and take the Saaskshilli as a POW put on trial for War crimes against Ossetia. Show the world how well the American Gov't actually supports its friends and what happens to those who resist Putin.
If the Americans has any balls, they will drop troops in Georgia as peacekeepers and call Putin's bluff. If Putin attacks the peaceekeepers, then we have WW3. Putin is not crazy or stupid. He will take his winning "Ossetia" and has showed any country that think Russia is only talk, what will happen to them.
But soon we will have Barack " Let's only talk" Neville Chamberlain Obama. The UN has shown that it is a disgrace and makes the league of nations look strong.
Climate is perfect for the next World War. |
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Voyager
Frequent Guest
Joined: 08 Jan 2006
Posts: 45
Location: Ireland
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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If I were Vladimir Putin I would be less worried about the U.S. which is a tired , spent power run by a war criminal (and not a clever one at that), I would be more worried about the 430,000,000 people living alongside Russia and Georgia who actually feel threatened by this , and have a military capability greater then the U.S. and Russia combined (we have more Thermo-Nuclear devices then both of you also) , and a sizable percentage of the E.U. population used to be citizens of the U.S.S.R. and from the sound of things would prefer to smash their way into Russia as revenge for decades of oppression than talk about it (they get quite angry when you tell them that sounds more Russian than a Russian), and the strenght of language comming from them has taken those of us in "older Europe" by surprise (although no surprise from Poland).
I would hope this comes to an end before those on both sides who profited from the cold war and yearn for those days to come again get their wish and we all end up paying the price |
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vox16
Just Starting
Joined: 14 Apr 2010
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Voyager wrote: |
Finally , on the issue of Russian passport holders in South Ossetia , I have to agree with Endar that Russia is free to issue passports to whomever it see's fit ,and it is admirable that Russia will commit such resources to their defence... |
..But..
As long as it doesn't lead to some demands of land inhabited by these passport holders, especially if they are still considered by citizens of other country. I totally despise the idea of 'lets give that random dudes passports and on that grounds demand they can secede'. Just imagine if EU decides to grant EU pasports to everybody who lives in Kaliningrad oblast ( 95% will gladly take them ) and then demand that oblast itself on the very same reason. |
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mister_wizzz
VIP
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:20 am Post subject: |
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| Voyager wrote: | If I were Vladimir Putin I would be less worried about the U.S. which is a tired , spent power run by a war criminal (and not a clever one at that), I would be more worried about the 430,000,000 people living alongside Russia and Georgia who actually feel threatened by this , and have a military capability greater then the U.S. and Russia combined (we have more Thermo-Nuclear devices then both of you also) , and a sizable percentage of the E.U. population used to be citizens of the U.S.S.R. and from the sound of things would prefer to smash their way into Russia as revenge for decades of oppression than talk about it (they get quite angry when you tell them that sounds more Russian than a Russian), and the strenght of language comming from them has taken those of us in "older Europe" by surprise (although no surprise from Poland).
I would hope this comes to an end before those on both sides who profited from the cold war and yearn for those days to come again get their wish and we all end up paying the price |
LOL are you talking about European Union ?
European Union is only economy union, EUropean countries are divided in a political point of view and it got even worse when eastern countries integrated the Union. Just have a look to what happened when Ukraine and Georgie wanted to join NATO... how could you imagine EU going at war united ?
Of course we have military power but it is mainly defensive and the only united command is NATO leaded by the USA !!!. Only France, Germany, Spain and Belgium have started which could become the beginning of an European army (Eurocorps), but in my opinion it is still a joke.
And about Nuclear weapons, let me laugh, there are only 2 European countries with nuclear weapons : France and UK.
France has 300 ogives, UK a bit more, if you add both : less than 1000 ogives. USA has 10 000 ogives and Russia probably more... |
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valentin
Just Starting
Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:26 am Post subject: |
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| ... People! Discussion of such terrible problem as war not seems to you rather strange? You, being far from this problem, argue, as though accept in it participation. Certainly, nobody knows thoroughly the reasons of this war... There are only guesses... BUT.. Unless you do not see, what the government operates you as to it will take in head?! They show you in news an old material, much that does not finish speaking! Actually, the president of Georgia Saakashvili speaks one, and does absolutely another,kill people! And the most awful that impudently says lies to all other European countries. It accuses Russia of an attack. Was lost more than two thousand person... Georgians employ soldiers from America and other countries to kill peace inhabitants of Ossetia... Press tanks of women and children.. Do not start up Russian citizens from Georgia... Fire at journalists, throw bombs in bombproof shelters where poor inhabitants of Ossetia are hidden... And to you on TV speaks what And you on TV are spoken by what awful Russia and only says lies! Open yourveyes! It is much worse than Hitler or Sadama Hussein!!!!!!!!!!! |
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valentin
Just Starting
Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:47 am Post subject: |
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"If i were Vladimir Putin"...Voyager ,
U are not V.Putin!) |
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Paul-Holmes
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1073
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:22 am Post subject: |
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| Genocide, I think we should trust Putin's opinion on this after all he is an expert. If you do not believe me, ask the Chechnyans. |
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Voyager
Frequent Guest
Joined: 08 Jan 2006
Posts: 45
Location: Ireland
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:54 am Post subject: |
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Thankfully I am not Vladimir Putin ........... I would'nt be able for his job  , it is true that much of the facts are not fully known here , and I also accept that when it comes to International trustworthiness post communist Russia has never lied to the world or tried to "dress up" its actions or miss-lead anyone (except the British , but thats a whole other story), even when the rest of the world has not liked what it heard , I dont know if the same is true of Georgia , but I suspect not.
As for the E.U. it has been divided for many years , but currently the proccess of ratifying the Lisbon Treaty is at advanced stages , this treaty creates a politically unified Europe for the first time , with its own courts , budgets , military and Foriegn ministry , the parliment will have final say over national parliments and allows for the bloc's expansion to 40 member states.
As for the nuclear arsnel , you'll find there a few E.U. states have been as shy as the Isreali's about where their nuclear programmes have advanced to , plus the "odd few" we inhereted from the former Soviet states , not that I approve , I live in one of the E.U.'s nuclear free zones.
I would like to think that Europe has a far better relationship with Russia than the U.S. , and although Georgia is not a European country as such , can you see how Russia's seemingly over the top response would seem threatening to E.U. states espically the ones to the east.
One other thing , it is in all our interests that Russian - E.U. relation stay good , otherwise we risk weakening each other enough to become victims to what looks like the murderous rise of radical Islam |
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Ender
WayToRussified
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 498
Location: Urals
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