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Ender
WayToRussified
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 498
Location: Urals
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 Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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Real photos from Georgian - Ossetian conflict. Made by one of guys who moved with russian forces. Not decorated reuters shit.
Warning: blood, fire and corpses.
http://www.navoine.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?p=551#551
Copyright (c) Arkadiy Babchenko
Almanakh - The Art Of War (Iskusstvo woyni)
Update: it looks like server sometimes go down because of overload. |
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Paul-Holmes
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1073
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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Putin will continue to push the west, because he know that they are bunch of pussies and always do appeasement. Until the West can actually push back, Putin will continue to do what he wants.
Two things are about to happen.
Part of Georgia will be annexed
They will push for Saakshavilli to step down.
I am not sure if it one or both. |
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Bento
Just Starting
Joined: 14 Aug 2008
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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| When will the World realize that Russians cannot be trusted? Europeans in particular should know this by now, they all depend on Russian oil, instead of trying to find alternatives. |
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Paul-Holmes
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1073
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Is Russia morphing into another USSR?
Its leaders are authoritarian, militaristic, greedy and not overly concerned about where their borders end
JOHN O'SULLIVAN
I'm back in the USSR
You don't know how lucky you are boys
Back in the USSR
- John Lennon
and Paul McCartney
It's not only the South Ossetians who are back in the USSR this morning. Other Georgians; countries in Russia's "near abroad" from the Caucasus to the Baltic; "national minorities" such as the Chechens; the West; and even Russians themselves now have to deal with a country and political leadership that bear an eerie similarity to Soviet models. They are authoritarian, militaristic, greedy and not overly concerned about where their borders end.
How lucky we should all feel about this is another matter.
In recent years, the Russian state has been credibly accused of murdering an exile in London; expropriated foreign investments on behalf of an energy company controlled by itself; cut off energy supplies to states as a means of political intimidation; assisted secessionist rebels in neighbouring states in order to keep their newly independent governments off-balance; and in the past few days - no more Mr. Nice Guy - invaded and bombed the sovereign state of Georgia.
Sometimes, these actions have worn a thin disguise of tax law enforcement or "peacekeeping." "Democracy" has been a similar camouflage for an authoritarian system in which power and wealth increasingly gather in the hands of Prime Minister Vladimir Putin and other siloviki (or former intelligence bureaucrats). But although the siloviki know how to seize property, they have no idea how to create wealth. They generally mismanage what they seize - and so eventually need to seize more.
This parasitic system has been exported profitably to the "secessionist" regions of Georgia, which the Kremlin claims to be protecting. Almost all the senior officials in the South Ossetian "government" are former KGB officials from various Russian provinces. Its "Interior Minister," for instance, previously served in the Interior Ministry of North Ossetia. As Yulia Latynina of Novaya Gazeta dryly points out: "South Ossetia is not a territory, not a country, not a regime. It is a joint venture of siloviki generals and Ossetian bandits for making money in a conflict with Georgia." The result is a squalid depopulated entrepôt for drugs, smuggling, money-laundering and other criminal endeavours.
In addition to making money for the siloviki, South Ossetia exists for the purpose of destabilizing pro-Western Georgia. Its sporadic shelling of nearby Georgian villages provoked Georgia's President Mikhail Saakashvili into a seemingly catastrophic military response.
But if Georgia had taken no action, Russia would have incorporated the breakaway province by degrees. Mr. Putin had already given South Ossetian residents Russian passports. Both trapdoors led to the same result: Russian expansion; the punishment of Georgia for daring to be an ally of the West; and the annexation of South Ossetia, now occupied by Russian "peacekeepers."
Yes, it's "back in the USSR," boys.
Will Mr. Putin's redrawing of international boundaries stop there? Russian tanks crossed into Georgia proper last night. Might he dismember the country still further and block the one pipeline that brings Central Asian energy to the West without going through Russian territory? And if so, will the West let him get away with it?
Moscow apparently calculates that its brute seizure of another country's territory can be disguised as a "peacekeeping" operation to prevent "genocide" and "ethnic cleansing" by the Georgians. A sophisticated press operation to popularize this mendacious "narrative" is being mounted internationally and at home. Initially, it found a hearing among those Western commentators for whom any enemy of George Bush or his friends must be in the right.
It has been widely argued, for instance, that Mr. Putin's recognition of South Ossetia was a response to the recognition of Kosovo's independence by the United States and European Union. Since Russia has been helping the secessionists for 16 years, this would make Russia's response a unique event in history: the first occasion on which an effect preceded its own cause.
Another excuse employed to soften criticism of Russia is that Mr. Saakashvili had angered Mr. Putin by seeking to join NATO. This argument is a particular application of the general proposition that, as philosopher Roger Scruton ironically puts it, "defence equals aggression." What the past week has demonstrated is that Mr. Saakashvili was right to seek the protection of NATO membership from Russian aggression. If granted, NATO membership would at least have given the Kremlin an additional serious reason not to risk this week's invasion.
This blend of a sophisticated Russian media campaign and the cultural masochism of Western public opinion might have persuaded the West to swallow a Russian seizure of South Ossetia and even Abkhazia, issue a few protests and then proceed with "business as usual." That may indeed still happen - German public opinion is especially susceptible to such pacifist temptations. But three obstacles now stand in the way of this appeasement.
The first is the actual sight of Russian tanks trundling through Georgian territory. On the 30th anniversary of the invasion of Czechoslovakia, it awakened all the old memories of Soviet brutalism. The second is that the tanks have kept on rumbling into Georgia proper. That seriously undermines the Russian "peacekeeping" narrative and is very hard to distinguish from outright aggression like, well, like the 1968 invasion of Czechoslovakia. And, third, former Soviet satellites now in NATO and the EU (including both Slovakia and the Czech Republic) form a permanent lobby for a strong defence against Russia. On Saturday, Poland and the Baltic states issued a joint appeal for both bodies to oppose Russian aggression.
But how can the West do so? Russia has an overwhelming strategic predominance in the region. Maybe the best Western diplomats can accomplish locally is to "re-freeze" the conflict along lines that allow Russia to keep its kleptocratic enclaves, but demand a retreat from Georgia proper. Given Russia's continuing military advance, such a settlement would now look almost like an achievement.
The longer term is another matter. If Russia is morphing into another USSR, then the West will have to defend the post-Cold War international structure and the independence of post-communist nations against Mr. Putin's neo-imperialism.
Any outright conquest of Georgia would lead to a new Cold War and Western economic sanctions. It would also pose risks for Russia locally, since the entire Caucasus is unstable and the Russian army increasingly reliant on Chechens and other national minorities for recruits. The combination could be catastrophic for Moscow - remember Afghanistan.
Even lesser Russian actions invite serious political responses. Thus the Central Europeans angered by the Georgia crisis might immediately accept the missile defence system opposed by Mr. Putin. His attack on Georgia would then be seen to have backfired drastically. A renewed offer of NATO membership to Georgia would similarly show that punishing the country had merely pushed it into a closer alliance with the West. The same offer might also be made to Ukraine, since the Russian attack on Georgia is seen in Kiev as a proxy warning to them. And finally, the West could increase the economic price of South Ossetia to Russia by rejecting Russian passports held by South Ossetians as invalid for travel and imposing other sanctions on its trade. The Kremlin would then be left managing an impoverished, troublesome and money-hungry province.
Wider economic sanctions should probably be held in reserve. They are more powerful as a threat than as a reality. So the West could warn that if Russia reacted violently to its political measures, they would impose economic sanctions, beginning with expulsion from the G8. Given Russia's overdependence on energy, its fast-declining population and its need for Western capital and markets, it cannot treat such threats lightly.
Of course, Russia has an economic sanction of its own - cutting off its energy supplies to leave Europe sitting in the dark. But if that's in the cards, maybe we should know it sooner rather than too late?
Otherwise, not only Georgians may be singing along with the final chorus:
Show me round your snow peaked mountains way down south
Take me to your daddy's farm
Let me hear your balalaika's ringing out
Come and keep your comrade warm.
I'm back in the USSR
You don't know how lucky you are boys
Back in the USSR
John O'Sullivan is executive editor, Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty. The opinions expressed are those of the author.
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gomer
WayToRussified
Joined: 30 Mar 2007
Posts: 445
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:31 am Post subject: |
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| The U.S. military is resupplying the Georgians under the banner of 'humanitarian aid'. U.S. military air and sea transports are being used and the U.S. military is betting the Russian military won't fire on the U.S. transports. President Bush thinks President Medvedev and Prime Minister Putin will 'blink' the way Premier Khrushchev 'blinked' during the Cuban Missile Crisis. |
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darthvader
WayToRussified
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Posts: 427
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:06 am Post subject: |
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| I suppose foreign news services such as Deutsche Welle, BBC World and CNN International are not getting much air time in Russian homes these days? Or, are these services still running, but now filtered? Watched quite a bit of these channels in Russia last winter. |
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Ender
WayToRussified
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 498
Location: Urals
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| darthvader wrote: | | I suppose foreign news services such as Deutsche Welle, BBC World and CNN International are not getting much air time in Russian homes these days? Or, are these services still running, but now filtered? Watched quite a bit of these channels in Russia last winter. |
There are about 15..20 channels of free TV you can see on average russian TV-receiver. There are federal channels, local channels, entertainment channels but there are no separate channels for western media services. Some times they show EuroNews as part of their programs.
There are commercial cable and satellite services. The price depends from the services available on local market. The price of the monthly subscription can vary from USD $3 to USD $25. For example basic package for NTV+ include BBC, CNN and a bunch of other news channels. They aren't limited or filtered in any way. It is difficult to find a house without satellite antenna in cities. In big sities local companies install one big antenna on the top of a house and distribute everything it receives to the people for a small amount of money. One can watch up to 200 channels.
I watched them first days of conflict. My impression - very biased and very unprofessional. They showed georgian tanks (it is very clear that they are Georgian - faces of tankists, writings on the tanks, vehicle numbers) and claimed that it were russian tanks invaded into Georgia out of the blue. |
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darthvader
WayToRussified
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Posts: 427
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for your detailed reply.
Although Putin's fostered a Russia-under-seige-from-the-West mentality over recent years, believe it or not, most Western countries have "no need to be biased" against Russia and, according to your post (plus my experiences), its good that Russia has some varied news access these days - even if this "foreign" news is negative from time to time.
However, unpleasing news doesn't always mean its always overtly biased or wrong. Have found some Western news reports concerning this conflict to be quite neutral in fact, giving analyses from both sides.
Even so, foreign news media is fringe in Russia (obviously not in Russian language, so it should be fringe). Thus, it would be good if "non-government" controlled newsmedia were more "mainstream" in Russia again. Although, Putin was not doing too well 7-8 years ago when NTV had free reign.
Anyway, concerning this sad Georgia-Russia conflict and later the geopolitical ramifications - hope it all resolves quicker than we think it will. |
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Ender
WayToRussified
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 498
Location: Urals
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| darthvader wrote: | | Even so, foreign news media is fringe in Russia (obviously not in Russian language, so it should be fringe). |
There are translated channels. However most beople don't bother to watch them.
Personally I don't like CNN news because of "running ribbons" over the bottom of screen and because of television anchorwomen. Our girls on TV simply younger and they have better eye appeal.  Shame on me, I'm old sexual maniac. |
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Paul-Holmes
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1073
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Don't abandon Georgia to Moscow's 'sphere of influence'
MARCUS GEE
August 15, 2008 at 7:30 AM EDT
Foolish Georgians for baiting the Russian bear. Silly Americans for egging them on.
Armchair strategists are wagging fingers over the supposed naiveté of Georgia and its superpower ally over the conflict in the Caucasus. In this blame-the-victim analysis, Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili started the whole thing by attacking separatists in South Ossetia, giving Russian leader Vladimir Putin the perfect excuse to respond in force. Washington encouraged the Georgian hothead by pumping him up with praise and making him think that it would gallop to his aid, while in fact it has no power at all to help.
The facts are somewhat different. While Mr. Saakashvili blundered at the start and Washington underestimated the Russians, it is wrong to place the blame on the Georgians and their American allies. That blame rests squarely with Moscow, which orchestrated the whole business with the skill of a Shostakovich.
It has been clear for months, even years, that Russia was determined to teach Georgia a lesson. Moscow was unhappy when the birthplace of Stalin broke away after the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991 and furious when the enthusiastically pro-American Mr. Saakashvili came to power vowing to join the Western military alliance, NATO.
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The Globe and Mail
To undermine him, Moscow slapped sanctions on Georgia and upgraded ties with the breakaway regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. As tensions rose, it sent tanks to the Georgian border, staged a sabre-rattling military exercise on the border with South Ossetia and started cyber-attacks against Georgia's Internet system. It was a classic squeeze play, straight out of the old Soviet manual.
Far from urging Mr. Saakashvili to lash back, Washington urgently and repeatedly urged him to show restraint. U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice privately told him he should not get into a fight with Russia that tiny Georgia could never win. Only when Russian troops were rolling through the Roki tunnel linking Russia to South Ossetia, says Mr. Saakashvili, did he unleash his own forces.
That was a disastrous mistake, supplying the Russians with the pretext they needed to launch an all-out assault. But the idea that Georgian aggression forced Russia to intervene is as absurd as the Nazi claim that Polish aggression started the Second World War. Indeed, without drawing exaggerated parallels, the Russian claim to be defending minorities in Georgia has unsettling echoes of the Nazi claim to be protecting ethnic Germans when it invaded Czechoslovakia. The claim looks especially thin coming from a country that only recently laid waste to a minority nationality, the Chechens, who dared to seek independence from Russia. Death to Free Chechnya! Hail Free South Ossetia!
With Russian jets threatening Georgian skies and Russian armour trundling along Georgian roads, it should be clear to everyone who the aggressor is here. The conflict in Georgia was a deliberate, premeditated assault designed to punish the Saakashvili government and send a message to the West about who rules the roost in Russia's hinterland.
Yes, Washington's warm backing of Mr. Saakashvili and his bid to join NATO made Georgia an especially inviting target. But it's been the policy of all Western governments since the end of the Cold War nearly 20 years ago to encourage post-Soviet and former East Bloc countries to embrace the democratic ways and economic freedoms that have worked such wonders in the West.
When the Rose Revolution of 2003 brought Mr. Saakashvili to power, it was right and natural for the West to embrace him as an example of democratic evolution. It was equally right and natural for Washington to speak up for Georgia's territorial integrity when Russia began threatening it. Simply abandoning Georgia to Moscow's "sphere of influence," as those armchair realists suggest, would send a signal to democrats from Warsaw to Kiev to Tallinn that they are on their own against an increasingly aggressive Moscow.
True, Washington can't back Georgia with military might, any more than it could back Hungary in 1956 or Czechoslovakia in 1968. But there are other ways to respond to Russia's aggression: downgrading political and military ties, revoking its status as a G8 country, barring it from the World Trade Organization. Georgia has been a setback, but it's wrong to think the West has no options for response. It has several, and it should use them.
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Xela
VIP
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 781
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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Let's not forget the Russians have a rich history of using photos and footage from various other previous conflicts in the region and using it as prime-time propaganda.
The USA is breathing down Russia's neck, and it will be interesting to see what becomes of this.
One thing is for sure: Russia isn't the great power it likes to think it is. |
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jo-jo-7
Just Starting
Joined: 16 Mar 2010
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:54 am Post subject: |
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| Since all this has happen between Russia and Georgia, I have and my Russian friend have declined a trip to Russia in September to see her family. I believe this would be in our best interest. I have a wasted ticket and all that money I spent on a passport and a visa. The Russian government has stepped over the limit with this invasion of a free independent country. This is not the 60's. It was wrong to go and kill over 2,000 innocent civilians so an ex leader can feel in power again. It was bad ethics on the Russian government and the Russian government should not get away with this. |
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gomer
WayToRussified
Joined: 30 Mar 2007
Posts: 445
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 3:29 am Post subject: |
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| I read Europe gets 25% of its natural gas from Russia. Germany alone gets 40% of its natural gas from Russia. Make the Russians angry and they might close the gas valves this winter to see if freezing Europeans complain about Georgia. |
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Voyager
Frequent Guest
Joined: 08 Jan 2006
Posts: 45
Location: Ireland
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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Europe only buys 25% of its gas from Russia as a good will measure and is by no means dependant on it , in the event that the Russian gas connecter is turned off it just means opening the valves on the North Sea Feilds a bit more.
Turkish T.V. are showing some very interesting unedited footage from Georgia and South Ossetia at the moment , makes the Russian troops there look very bad , openly firing on civilians and western media , and also allowing Ossetian bandits loot and ransack Georgian towns.
But the best footage award has to go to the Japaneese satalite system which has been taking the damndest pictures of the region over the last few weeks from orbit.
It clearly shows Russia to be the agressor as the Russian military build up in North Ossetia began a full 10 days BEFORE a single shot was fired , further it seems that every August for the last decade or so the Ossetian millitia would begin firing over the border at the Georgians and the Georgians would respond in kind , this year however the Russians were waiting on the other side of the border , Japaneese satalite pictures further show it was the Russian troops assisted by the Ossetian millitia carried out the ethnic cleansing that has Moscow so worked up.
So either Moscow is indeed lying about its intentions here or Moscow has lost control over its military and is unaware of its actions , neither is a comforting prospect |
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gomer
WayToRussified
Joined: 30 Mar 2007
Posts: 445
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